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I know I am about to open up a can of worms with this, but in case you haven't seen it, see how Presidential candidate Obama tells the world what he will do when elected:

Remember, the world has access to these statements too.
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I watched the full version of that and heard Obama say he'd stop the spending of $10,000,000,000 per month in Iraq. Is this a BAD thing or a GOOD thing? I heard his say that he'd not Weaponize Space, Is this a BAD thing or a GOOD thing? I heard him say he'd work with Russia to reduce our Nuclear Weapons Inventory, Is this a BAD thing or a GOOD thing.
And lastly I heard him say his priority for defense spending will be to protect the American people (rather than American Business Intersts); and I offer, are these BAD things or GOOD things?

But as THE MAN says these are such trivial arguments . . .

But you opened the can so lets take the worms and go fishing!
I agree with you on some points that his goals are admirable in wanting to cut wasteful spending. That's about it.

In the future if he is elected, and he cuts the nuclear arsenal, cuts defense spending, brings all of our troops back to the US from around the world (which numbers around 500,000), says that we no longer will protect our allies (which means that US bases around the world will have to be closed).

Does he honestly think that by telling the world we no longer will produce nuclear weapons, that Russia, Iran, China, & North Korea are going to stop producing theirs? If you thought 9-11-01 was catastrophic, just sit back and watch, cause you ain't seen nothing yet! The rest of the world is not going to lay their weapons down because Obama wants a global ban on nuclear weapons. All this is doing is giving the green light to other countries who want to destroy the US. Diplomacy may be the best policy, but what do you do when Iran says the hell with your diplomacy? Let us not forget what happened to the American hostages who were held in Iran. Let us not forget the failed military attempt to free those hostages under the reign of President Carter.

Your views may be different from mine, and it doesn't mean that you are right and I am wrong, but that we see things differently. I respect your views even though mine are different. That is one aspect of what makes the United States the greatest country on this earth, we have the FREEDOM to do so. Other countries only have government run television, and are told what to think and believe. We have the right to choose!

I would love to see our world at peace with one another, but it will never happen, not in our lifetime. If the fat can be trimmed from government spending, great, I'm all for it, but not at the expense of the men and women who are now and have ever defended this nation from all enemies, foreign and domestic.

I've said enough. Where did you say we were going fishing?
actually, if I can remember correctly, that providing for the national defense is one of the few things that the federal government was purposed with and not all of the other "crap" that it does now. States rights have steadily been usurped over the years by the federal gov't. to its bloated self today.
This is the type of Political discourse we all need; Statement of views, discussion and a resolution that we disagree but that its OK to disagree. I hate the "down your throat" rhetoric that you hear on talk radio or the cable "news" networks - nothing more than salacios entertainment.

As for the fishing holes I'm sure you know of a good farm pond in Ky.
I totally agree with Neal and Chuck!

First, as Neal mentioned, the States were initially envisioned with much more power than they are today. The Governor of a state was a more powerful position than senator or even President (except in terms of foreign relations and war).

Next, as Chuck said, I really enjoy speaking with people who totally disagree with me. I want to hear your viewpoint, I want to know how you made your decisions. I want to learn about you and how you feel and examine my own beliefs in that light. That's not "waffling" that's "growing".

And Lastly... Last I heard, we had enough nuclear weapons to destroy the entire earth about 1,000 times. I think decreasing the nuclear stockpile by say 200-300 times would be prudent and wise Smile.

Chuck's previous post said most of what I'd say.
I received this email from whoever about an article from Jay Leno. We all agree that we have the right to disagree with someone else. Read on........

Jay Leno wrote this; it's the Jay Leno we don't often see....
> " As most of you know I am not a President Bush fan, nor have I ever been, but
> this is not about Bush, it is about us, as Americans, and it seems to hit the
> mark 'The other day I was reading Newsweek magazine and came across some Poll
> data I found rather hard to believe. It must be true given the source, right?
> The Newsweek poll alleges that 67 percent of Americans are unhappy with the
> direction the country is headed and 69 percent of the country is unhappy with
> the performance of the President. In essence 2/3 of the citizenry just ain't
> happy and want a change. So being the knuckle dragger I am, I started thinking,
> "What are we so unhappy about?''
> A. Is it that we have electricity and running water 24 hours a day, 7 Days a
> week?
> B. Is our unhappiness the result of having air conditioning in the summer and
> heating in the winter?
> C. Could it be that 95.4 percent of these unhappy folks have a job?
> D. Maybe it is the ability to walk into a grocery store at any time and see more
> food in moments than Darfur has seen in the last year?
> E. Maybe it is the ability to drive our cars and trucks from the Pacific Ocean
> to the Atlantic Ocean without having to present identification papers as we
> move through each state?
> F. Or possibly the hundreds of clean and safe motels we would find along the way
> that can provide temporary shelter?
> G. I guess having thousands of restaurants with varying cuisine from around the
> world is just not good enough either.
> H. Or could it be that when we wreck our car, emergency workers show up and
> provide services to help all and even send a helicopter to take you to the
> hospital.
> I. Perhaps you are one of the 70 percent of Americans who own a home.
> J. You may be upset with knowing that in the unfortunate case of a fire, a group
> of trained firefighters will appear in moments and use top notch equipment to
> extinguish the flames, thus saving you, your family, and your belongings.
> K. Or if, while at home watching one of your many flat screen TVs, a burglar or
> prowler intrudes, an officer equipped with a gun and a bullet-proof vest will
> come to defend you and your family against attack or loss.
> L. This, all in the backdrop of a neighborhood free of bombs or militias raping
> and pillaging the residents, Neighborhoods where 90% of teenagers own cell
> phones and computers.
> M. How about the complete religious, social and political freedoms we enjoy that
> are the envy of everyone in the world?
> Maybe that is what has 67% of you folks unhappy.
> Fact is, we are the largest group of ungrateful, spoiled brats the world has
> ever seen. No wonder the world loves the U.S., yet has a great disdain for its
> citizens. They see us for what we are. The most blessed people in the world who
> do nothing but complain about what we don't have, and what we hate about the
> country instead of thanking the good Lord we live here. I know, I know. What
> about the president who took us into war and has no plan to get us out? The
> president who has a measly 31 percent approval rating? Is this the same
> president who guided the nation in the dark days after 9/11? The president
> who cut taxes to bring an economy out of recession? Could this be the same
> guy who has been called every name in the book for succeeding in keeping all
> the spoiled ungrateful brats safe from terrorist attacks, the commander in
> chief of an all-volunteer army that is out there defending you and me?
> Did you hear how bad the President is on the news or talk show? Did this news
> affect you so much, make you so unhappy you couldn't take a look around for
> yourself and see all the good things and be glad? Think about it......are you
> upset at the President because he actually caused you personal pain OR is it
> because the 'Media' told you he was failing to kiss your sorry ungrateful
> behind every day. Make no mistake about it. The troops in Iraq and
> Afghanistan have volunteered to serve, and in many cases may have died for your
> freedom. There is currently no draft in this country. They didn't have to go.
> They are able to refuse to go and end up with either a ''general'' discharge, an
> 'other than honorable'' discharge or, worst case scenario, a "dishonorable"
> discharge after a few days in the brig.
> So, why then the flat-out discontentment in the minds of 69 percent of
> Americans?
> Say what you want but I blame it on the media. If it bleeds it leads and they
> specialize in bad news. Everybody will watch a car crash with blood and guts.
> How many will watch kids selling lemonade at the corner? The media knows this
> and media outlets are for-profit corporations. They offer what sells, and when
> criticized, try to defend their actions by 'justifying' them in one way or
> another. Just ask why they tried to allow a murderer like O.J Simpson to write
> a book about how he didn't kill his wife, but if he did he would have done it
> this way......Insane!
> Turn off the TV, burn Newsweek, and use the New York Times for the bottom of
> your bird cage. Then start being grateful for all we have as country. There is
> exponentially more good than bad. We are among the most blessed people on
> Earth and should thank God several times a day, or at least be thankful and
> appreciative.' 'With hurricanes, tornados, fires out of control, mud slides,
> flooding, severe thunderstorms tearing up the country from one end to another,
> and with the threat of bird flu and terrorist attacks, 'Are we sure this is a
> good time to take God out of the Pledge of Allegiance?'
>Jay Leno
Jay Leno is misquoted in the last line of that, the rest was written by someone else.

His actual quote was "As you know Hurricane Rita is headed toward Florida, Texas and Louisiana. Another hurricane! It's like the ninth hurricane this season. Maybe this is not a good time to take God out of the Pledge of Allegiance." Nothing about Terrorism or Bird Flu.

The fact that I can buy groceries like every other civilized nation does not make me have to be "happy" with the actions of the president.

I should be grateful for that, and respectful of the many patriots and heroes who made it possible in the past, which I am.

John Adams once said "I must study politics and war, that our sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. Our sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history and naval architecture, navigation, commerce and agriculture in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry and porcelain."

We are the children of those children. We owe all that we have to those previous generations and owe it to future generations to provide them the same opportunities.

I can be patriotic (I am a U.S. Army veteran), grateful to live in America and a Christian and STILL be "unhappy" with the actions of the current administration.
Last edited by JasonR
When I looked into this a bit more, I found it originally ended with the following quote from B.C Forbes:

''What have Americans to be thankful for? More than any other people on the earth, we enjoy complete religious freedom, political freedom, social freedom. Our liberties are sacredly safeguarded by the Constitution of the United States, 'the most wonderful work ever struck off at a given time by the brain and purpose of man.' Yes, we Americans of today have been bequeathed a noble heritage. Let us pray that we may hand it down unsullied to our children and theirs.''

Before someone editied it and added in Jay Leno.
Originally posted by Old Glory:
There really isn't very much you can blame "the current administration" for.

I have to disagree, the issues I believe make those Americans "unhappy" with the administration are directly tied to the administration.

Warrantless Wire taps of American Citizens

All of these are the decision of the President, not congress.
I guess it is not totally unfounded to blame the President for Iraq but the decision was supported by Congress and the American People at the time. As far as the decision to stay, even the Democrats are backing off discussions of immediate withdrawal. Most Americans do not support the Cut-and-Run approach.
I also don't feel that "most Americans" are against "water boarding" or Warrantless wiretaps of terrorists.
If you choose to believe the polls, keep in mind how easy it is to push an agenda using carefully engineered poll questions. For instance, if you ask people if they are pro-life and you might get a majority saying yes. However, if you ask these same people if they support the killing of unborn babies, the results would be quite different.
I am one who believes that the national media does seek to drive an agenda and purposely only present poll results that serve that end.
I agree with you on Polls, they can certainly be twisted to say anything they want.

However, I'd have to disagree with everything else. The decision to invade Afghanistan, where the terrorists are was supported by Congress and the American People. The invasion of Iraq was not.

Since we both think polls are meaningless, I'm not sure how we'd determine if most Americans are against anything.

Your assertion that you don't mind spying or torturing Terrorists has a flaw, how do you know if they are a terrorist before you illegally spy upon and torture them? There are 80 people at Gitmo right now that the US government says are not terrorists and pose no threat to the US, but they can't move them because no one wants to take them back. They aren't terrorist, but we tortured some of them...

As far as the wire taps, there was a court and a procedure for getting those wiretaps and the President Violated it. The court had approved thousands of wiretaps and only refused to approve 3 for lack of evidence. For the "ticking bomb argument", the agents could set up a wire tap and spy for 3 days without a warrant. The only reason to violate these procedures would be if you wanted to spy on people you knew the court wouldn't allow since you had no reason to be doing it.

I know you say you are fine with President Bush doing this, but would you really want (a theoretical)President Hillary Clinton having the power to spy on anyone she chooses with no legal recourse?

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Last edited by JasonR
Originally posted by Old Glory:
Where we disagree:
That the American people don't and have never supported the War on Terrorism

I never said that. I said Iraq. There was no al-queda in Iraq until after the US invasion. The war in Iraq is a separate entity from the war on Terrorism.

Unwarranted Wire Taps of US citizens are illegal not according to me, but according to the US constitution.
Originally posted by Neal:
Also, if there is nothing wrong with the Gitmo prisoners, why have over 30 who have been released either been recaptured or killed trying to kill Americans again.

Who said there's nothing wrong with the prisoners? I said the US government said that 80 needed to be released, not that every one of them was some "innocent victim".

Officials have mentioned the 30 figure, but they've never been able to say who those people were. The names they have provided haven't been working out so well.
Originally posted by Old Glory:
I'm not aware of your Gitmo assertion, but if there is nothing wrong with these 80 prisoners, why does nobody want them?

Here's the story about the US wanting to release some prisoners (it was 65 not 80). I don't know why their home countries don't want them, but my comment was about the US wanting to release them. If they are all terrorists, why would the US want to do that?
It is unfathomable to me that we have remained free from terrorist attacks since 9/11. Whatever we are doing is working and I wouldn't want to change a thing.

If you trample on or take away enough freedom from the people you will eventually have peace, you will eventually have an ordered society and you will eventually have no political discourse or challenge to those in power. BTW...I haven't smoked, been drunk or had sex since 911. I hope this this is the reason we haven't been attacked again. I would hate to think my sacrifice is for naught!
Due diligence...of course. But I don't believe in this administration's excesses. The ad hoc suspension of the Constitution, the trampling of civil liberties, the "antipatriotic" labeling of anyone who questions or criticizes the means to the ends, the ending of careers as punishment for not falling in lock-step behind this administration, the parallel government run from the vice-president's office....etc., etc.
If the goal of the terrorists is to bring down our form of government because they hate freedom, maybe they've come closer to winning than we want to admit?
In response to your question, we have of course done what was necessary to protect ourselves. But not EVERY step we've taken was necessary. I am in firm belief that some actions were absolutely right, some were absolutely a mistake, some were opportunistic, some were illegal, some were out of fear, and some were pure ego.
Party means nothing to me, absolutely NOTHING...I do not follow blindly. I do not trust blindly. I wasn't voting for most of those administrations since Lincoln. As a voting member of MY generation I have an obligation to question the decisions of our elected and appointed leaders. Any time my criticism is responded to with anything but respect, I will strongly suspect the motives of that official. That is to say, we can agree to disagree. But I feel it is the height of patriotism to question and to force our officials to maintain the traditional ideals of our country. Not to allow them to take shortcuts through the Constitution. Not to stand for them to tear others down to support themselves.

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