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Wish I could help, I am only familiar with the old "splash" rip for this system.

The DOC 12 is very vunerable as a print unit.

erox DocuColor 12 "User Comments" ricohaficio
(43/M/Highlands, NJ) 8/21/01 10:01 pm
1. The Doc12 does not perform as well on coated stock and card stock as represented by the Xerox rep.

2. Since we leased a DOC12 with a Splash Rip in April 2000, our color copy volume has increased from 2,500 to 10,000 copies per month.

3. Since we first installed our Doc12, we have seen a steady increase in our color copy volume. We are ripping more with greater success in matching colors. We are doing more business cards, two-sided brochures and with much less down time. We have been very pleased.

4. In June 2000, we upgraded from a CLC800 to a DOC12. Quality and reliability have been great and has resulted in a doubling of our copy volume.



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Recommend Delete Message 2 of 4 in Discussion

From: ricohaficio Sent: 12/17/2001 8:57 PM
Another DOC12 User: ricohaficio
(43/M/Highlands, NJ) 8/6/01 10:51 pm
We upgraded from an unconnected CLC900 to the Doc12 with an X12 Rip in December. This has allowed us to sell (and print-in-house) high quality full color brochures, business cards and even newsletters that we used to have to farm out. Our color copy business has increased 30% since upgrading.

Note: This printer has a monthly volume of 12,000 pages a month and rate the DOC 12 at a 9.




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Recommend Delete Message 3 of 4 in Discussion

From: ricohaficio Sent: 12/17/2001 8:58 PM
New Xerox Doc 12 :Field Report" ricohaficio
(43/M/Highlands, NJ) 8/6/01 10:43 pm
A Xerox Doc12 user reported: We replaced a Xerox 5799 with a Doc12 in March 2001. We are very pleased with it, especially the way it reproduces gold ink on certificates. We also like the card and coated stock capability and almost total absence of jams.

It is very user friendly and goes about twice as long between service calss as the 5799.

Note: This printer is doing 8,000 copies per month and rates this model a 9 for performance (ON A SCALE OF ONE TO TEN WITH TEN BEING THE BEST).




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Recommend Delete Message 4 of 4 in Discussion

From: ricohaficio Sent: 12/20/2001 7:35 PM
Pros: Fast, great quality color, easy to use
Cons: Jams, never as fast as we want it, finicky processing.

Recommended: No

The long-awaited day arrived, and the Docucolor 12 (or Fiery as we call it) was unveiled. Many ooooooh's and ahhhhhh's were accompanied by a brief demonstration by a pretty skilled and knowledgable Xerox rep. I was pretty impressed at that time, as before I was relying solely on 2 very slow and inefficient Epson Stylus Color 850's. I felt this Fiery would be a great thing for our production needs, especially since my little department does probably 75% of the whole office's color printing. No more queuing up our dinky Epson to print all night just to barely make production needs! No more outsourcing for really nice heavy-gloss paper or boards!

Reality

After one week, a plethora of problems presented themselves to us. My department uses a great deal of extra-heavyweight glossy 8.5x11 paper for our marketing books. The Xerox rep had eagerly reassured us that the Fiery would have no problem with this, would, in fact, thrive on it, but when the machine began smelling hot and refused to print, we learned a different story. Another Xerox rep came out and accused us of intentionally using paper that we knew was harmful to the machine. Apparently our high-gloss paper had been melting inside the machine, cumulatively coating the printer fuser in an irreparable way. After replacing the fuser and ordering the (much more expensive and lower-quality) Xerox gloss paper, things chugged along fairly uneventfully.

Speed, speed, speed. The Fiery's processor is ultra-fast. I've seen people queue up huge files, and the Fiery spools, rips, and prints it out pretty darn quickly. Especially nice is the fact that if you're just making multiple copies of an image, the Fiery scans the image and keeps the image in memory rather than re-scanning like a traditional copier. This means even more speed, and speed is everything.

Ease of Use. Not everyone who works here grew up in the age of technology. Just today I came into the copy room to see a man scratching his head (obviously his secretary was gone and he was left to fend for himself with the big bad copy machine) and staring cluelessly at our two copy centers (we also have the Xerox 9500 copy center for most black&white copying and use the Fiery as backup b/w copying). I guided him through the process of making copies on the Fiery, and he was very impressed with the ease of use. So, despite its fairly foreboding appearance it's really quite manageable even for beginners. The help and options menus are very clear and make it easy for you to choose what options you want to include in your copying.

Bad Stuff I Don't Like.

I think my main problem with the Fiery is central to the fact that I share it with so many people. People are not always considerate; they may queue up a huge job and then walk away from it, and if it gets stuck or jams then any jobs in the queue just sit and wait. A great feature which is optional is installing the Fiery Command Workstation on your PC, if you're on a network. That enables people to look up and see what's going on at the Fiery from their desks. That would, I think, really enhance its productivity here a great deal.

Oh, and Jams, jams, jams. This seems to happen particularly more with the heavier paper, and it happens a great deal. Luckily the Fiery has a great interface for troubleshooting, and will usually walk even the biggest idiot through to remove a jam and get things going again. Still, it seems to happen a bit more than it should.
From: salesguru3 (Original Message) Sent: 10/31/2002 2:55 PM

Hey,

I am in against Xerox on a Doc12 and my client needs this device to be able to do match print type proofing. He says the Werox can do it and it is because of the Imation Front End on the Doc12.

What does that mean and can the 6513 now, or will it be able to with the graphic arts package and the E820 controller?

THANKS!!!
Posts: 1210 | From: Highlands | Registered: Mon January 06 2003



Docusultant

Manager
posted Tue January 07 2003 11:03 AM
From: ricohaficio Sent: 10/31/2002 4:35 PM

Our 6513 with the e-820 can do the occasional match print (the customer high quality with matching colors) that needs to go to press. The match print must do exactly that (match) what comes off of the four color (SWOP) press. I have sold 4506 's and 6513's to do this for some of my P4P accounts. The 4506 and 6513 with fierys will fair very well. The Xerox solution is not a match print maker, if it was they would call it that. It will suffice like ours for the occasional match print that doesn't not need "high end" color. Match prints from a color lab run as much as $80.00 per print.
Our 6513 is just as good as or better than the doc 12 when it comes to comps, proofs, and the occasional "match print".

If you need more info, please let me know.

Art
Posts: 1210 | From: Highlands | Registered: Mon January 06 2003



Docusultant

Manager
posted Tue January 07 2003 11:04 AM
From: salesguru3 Sent: 10/31/2002 4:43 PM

Thanks for the info.

The client told me that Xerox is proposing an Imation Front End which is match print certified and also GATF certified (which I presume is a standard in the graphic arts world)
I am thinking that with the E820 Fiery RIP and with the graphic arts package that we will be ale to get close to that quality.

The really interesting thing about this is that the client said that Xerox is considerably less expensive than I was and I was pricing a 6513 and an E 710, of course before the client haphazardly sprung this match print issue on me today. If this is true, and I change to the E820 and the graphic arts package, then I will really be out of thw water price wise.
As far as I can figure, this Doc 12 must be Remanufactured though Xerox told the client is it new, as they always do. I told the client there is no way it could be new, but he insisted it was. They also might be killing me on service as I am in at $.17 per click and am not sure what kind of 4th quarter tricks they might be pulling.

Any suggestions???

THANKS
Posts: 1210 | From: Highlands | Registered: Mon January 06 2003



Docusultant

Manager
posted Tue January 07 2003 11:05 AM
From: ricohaficio Sent: 10/31/2002 5:35 PM

I'm sure if you look through EFI's web page you'll find some cool information to help fight the battle against Xerox. I have seen the Xerox in P4P and have won and lost, the only one I lost was due to the customer also needing a docutech solution upgrade. Xerox threw in the Doc12 as long as he upgraded his Docutech.

Docutech was then using Splash as their color server, EFI bought Splash about a year and a half ago. You have to use DMAPL Level 6 Pricing (P4P) to get on level terms, plus you cost for maintenance is "out of whack". You should be around 10 to 12 cents for a total cpc solution (with supplies and maintenance) and 12 may be high now.



EFI is proud to belong to the following Graphic Arts associations:



Fiery® Graphic Arts Package™

Graphic Arts Solution

Developed to address the specific requirements of graphic arts professionals, the Fiery Graphics Arts Package is a comprehensive set of tools to achieve consistently accurate color and print quality. The Graphics Arts Package lets users adhere to industry standards and simulate the characteristics of other output processes, while providing conveniences to enhance workflow.

Specialized tools for graphic arts professionals
Greater color precision and repeatability
Support for accurate proofing and simulations
Accommodation for varied document formats
Features

The Graphics Arts Package includes support for:

More accurate proofing and simulation of final offset printing through halftone screening
Better representation of both color and page layouts with accurate on-screen previews of print jobs
Combining multiple-plate PostScript® separations regardless of the applications used to create them
Modifying spot colors by editing PANTONE® tables and defining custom colors
Automating workflow activities such as job ticketing and imposition
Automatic correction of mis-registration for composite or separate documents through auto-trapping
Accurate proofing of print jobs on the target paper stock through paper simulation
Enhanced calibration method, which uses two reference targets and analyzes 60 measurements per color
Bridging proprietary and standard PostScript /PDF workflows through TIFF/IT input

look at the page we have the same certifications as they do, find out more from EFI, call them, they will help!

Art
Posts: 1210 | From: Highlands | Registered: Mon January 06 2003



Docusultant

Manager
posted Tue January 07 2003 11:06 AM
rom: Graham Sent: 10/31/2002 6:05 PM

I have a hard time believing that you are out of the ball park on the 6513 unless Xerox has done some major price reductions. I lost one with an E-820 to Xerox based on print samples alone (The print samples from the Xerox were from a system that and an additional $10K option installed on it NOT what they bought) now the customer is regretting buying the Xerox. We were lower than Xerox at DMAP6. Remember, you can use DMAP6 cost for Any print for pay customer.
I am seeing Xerox offer zero minimum plans at $ 0.089 for an all inclusive service agreement. When comparing the 6513 make sure that you are using a densitometer to calibrate your print controller. Before calibrating the print controller make certain that your 6513 has not been calibrated from the factory default settings. Your service tech should be able to show you how to "wipe" clean the calibration on the 6513. This will help you achieve optimal quality. One thing you may want to point out to your customer is how slow the DC12 runs heavy weight stocks. I have timed them as slow as 1.5 pages per minute. The 6513 runs twice as fast as that! Also, Xerox has placed the feed roller for the bypass in the corner. This will create a "tail whip" effect, especially on heavy stock.

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